Nicole Saphier vs. Casey Means For Surgeon General

Is it easier to change the medical establishment from the inside or the outside?

In this clip from our episode "MAHA Split Over New Surgeon General," hosts David E. Williams and John Driscoll break down what separated Casey Means from Nicole Saphier, and why the switch from outsider advocate to credentialed insider may say everything about how health reform actually gets done.

Listen to the full episode here

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Transcript

David: 0:07

The thing is, is John, so it's one thing to say can, can the surgeon general go and be America's doctor and, and, and say these, these sort of things? Well, you have some other people in politics, starting with RFK Jr. himself, you know, who are spouting off a bunch of things. It's hard for one person to break through. And then some of the items that you're talking about, which you say have bipartisan support, let's talk about, you know, improving the environment. Well, what else is going on with this administration and this Congress in terms of the environment? You know, we're talking about rolling back EPA standards, talking about essentially, you know, banning electric vehicles to the extent possible, c- canceling wind projects. So it's not as though it's just like, oh, someone can come with some clarity. It's that a, like a lot of the actual policy, the real policy is aligned against what somebody might say that would be enlightened.

John: 0:55

Yeah, and I'll, I'll get the name wrong, but the, the current, uh, argument about gly- glyphosate phosphate, y- you know, the where, where there's a, a real belief that a, uh, a pesticide that is in common use may actually be a major environmental toxin, and that, that has been a, uh, certainly an agenda item for the Make America Healthy movement, and it appears to have been stopped dead by the Department of Agriculture and the White House. Uh, there are other, uh, I'm sure, examples of that, but they have had some successes, David, at, uh, at getting, getting some of the dye out of, out of, out of food and kids' candy. And, and I think it's changed the agenda around food. But I'm, I'm cautiously optimistic that if we could... I mean, a lot of, um, you know, the, the, the, the, the current nominee, uh, has been very clear that lifestyle and, uh, environment really does drive a lot of our chronic illness burden, and she may be able to navigate this. She's also not a big fan of big government and certain mandates, and she's not a fan of the, uh, Affordable Care Act. Uh, but she has been pretty consistent about that burden of chronic disease, and I think there, there is a, there may be a w- path to reset, Maha, around the things we agree on to make progress.

David: 2:17

Okay. Well, that sounds like you're, you're, you're optimistic, but within a little bit of a narrow lane. So why is she, why is Sethar being called, like, a tool of the pharma industry? Like, wh- why, where does that come from?

John: 2:28

Oh, I, I, I think anyone, I mean, the, the benefit of, uh, uh, Casey Means is that she consciously lived outside and made the d- uh, the, the reason why she didn't have a, a m- uh, a practicing medical license is she choose to s- she was a very talented student and a, and a very promising, with a very promising career. She went to Stanford Medical School. But she consciously said, "Look, this medical establishment and the world, the, the, the infrastructure that exists is not something that's supporting, that's doing anything other than, than dealing with the symptoms versus the cause of chronic disease," and she did a, she's, she's been a real advocate against that. You know, the, the current nominee much, you know, much more, more of a conventional clinical background. One of the ... She's one of the best cancer facilities in the world at Memorial Sloan Kettering. She's got a, a storied career. She's a published author. Um, and she's a practicing doc. And I think it may be easier to move the establishment from inside than, than, than from the outside. The problem is that the folks who are, are most con- comfortable criticizing the current healthcare, food, big company, big government, you know, toxic combination, who are the advocates against that and wanna make America healthy again, who are skeptical of all the insiders, are gonna be really skeptical of an insider, and she's perceived, even though her criticisms are similar to theirs of the system, as an insider. I think it's ca- I think it's tribal. I don't think it's, it's based on content. I think it's based on, you know, discomfort.